[poll] Christianity-Helping or Hurting?

[VeganHunter]

Oh, I thought iapryx might have meant fellatious?  

I was a fundamentalist for so long, and I take the tenets of Christianity so seriously, that I have no use for half-hineyed, wishy-washy, warm-fuzzy Christianity.  Either it is or it isn't.  So I had to let go of Christianity altogether.  I didn't reject Christianity based on bad experiences - fortunately I was sufficiently sensitive and intelligent to differentiate.  In the end, reading the Bible is what woke me up.

Looking back, I think that staying in less-fundamentalist Christianity (for about 11 years post-ATI) was a necessary and helpful transition for me.  I've been very envious of my younger siblings who've had the clarity and emotional wherewithall to detach from Christianity quickly and cleanly, but that wasn't my path.  Maybe being the oldest meant I was more obedient to the parents' decrees - and had no examples of surviving outside the fold.

Having a liberal Christian spouse during my deconversion was a help as well.  He didn't judge, didn't preach, didn't insist I go to church, even though he had a prominent leadership position in the biggest church in his city, where his family is fairly well known.  Nor did he rush my process, or use it to his advantage in any way, e.g. "great - now that you're not a fundy any more, you can eat pork!" %-6  For my part, I made a bit of effort to play wifey to some degree so as not to embarrass him or make my apostasy glaringly obvious.

I'm not always sure how to relate to former-fundies who have stayed "in the fold" and adapted their beliefs to fit a more liberal Christianity.  I suppose it depends on what the relationship was before I left, to mis-appropriate Semirrahge's point.  Some of them, like my Sibling #2, think they're better than I am - but then, she always felt superior, to pretty much everybody.  Others presume that I skipped out because I'm bitter and/or want to lead a life of moral wantonness.

Well, if drinking caffeinated black tea means living on the wild side, here I am ...

[ATI-anon]

Even outside of the fundementalist circles that I once was entrapped by (ie ATI), the more a person talks about and claims to love and follow Christ, Allah, Jehovah, etc... the less they are inclined to follow the very teachings they spout. Why would I want to follow a religion or a God that the major leaders of and "most spiritual" people in seem to create followers that use and twist those otherwise good words to enslave?

[spitfire1979]

[blockquote][/blockquote]

I was a fundamentalist for so long, and I take the tenets of Christianity so seriously, that I have no use for half-hineyed, wishy-washy, warm-fuzzy Christianity.  Either it is or it isn't.  So I had to let go of Christianity altogether.  I didn't reject Christianity based on bad experiences - fortunately I was sufficiently sensitive and intelligent to differentiate.  In the end, reading the Bible is what woke me up.

Same here.  I had to read the Bible through in order to go on a mission trip in '95 and realized that if the OT was any indication of the nautre of God, I was nicer than He and would never have been allowed to play with Him.  My "iron-clad" faithwas, fortunately, based in the assumption that God is good, and therefore the Bible cannot be infallible.  I believe now that it was written at a time in world history not unlike our own, and any group of people could pen a text giving them Divine right to kill, steal, plunder and commit heinour atrocities against their enemies.  Then, wouldn't you know it....voila....the same people will produce a savior for the entire world.  out of all the millions of geographical impossibilities, the world begins, breathes, triumphs and is redeemed right in my own backyard, and those not fortunate enough to have been born in the right place just have to suck it up and become as I.

No, this does not a universal truth make.  I am not sorry that I read the Bible, and not sorry that I believed it.  I am sorry, however, for speaking up as a 4 year old to elder family members and telling them they were going to hell because they did things my parents and church didn't agree with.  I'm sorry that for most of my life I saw people as "saved and unsaved" and felt somewhat handicapped by my lack of ability to "save" them when there were thougsands of things I could have done that would have truly made life better for them.

[EternalNight]

Even outside of the fundementalist circles that I once was entrapped by (ie ATI), the more a person talks about and claims to love and follow Christ, Allah, Jehovah, etc... the less they are inclined to follow the very teachings they spout. Why would I want to follow a religion or a God that the major leaders of and "most spiritual" people in seem to create followers that use and twist those otherwise good words to enslave?

I have to admit I agree.

[iapryx]

Religion, as a system, always fails.  My real question is whether or not the personal relationship certain Christians seem to be at peace with is the real McCoy.  None of this religious system/rules nonsense for me.

What spitfire said about what parts of the OT are true or just excuses is also something I've been wondering about recently.  The atrocities in the Book of Joshua would rival the Holocaust.  Then again, Joshua may have written the book on his own to justify his actions, a fake account.  Who knows?  I'd like to.

[Andy]

I completely agree where everyone is coming from.  The title of this forum is, " [poll] Christianity-Helping or Hurting."  I will let history answer that question:  Historically, Christianity has been a nightmare.

Historically, Christianity adopted many pagan myths/stories/allegories, and took them as their own.  Some of the allegories in the bible are simply taken from pagan myths over the hundreds of years when the bible was written.  It was something people were familiar with and could simply relate to and understand.  This is not a bad thing in itself, but 2000 years later, most people do not understand this.  

Ever wondered about the, "other," books of the bible that no one ever dare mention in church?  Wondered why these were not put in the bible?  In AD 400, Emperor Constantine wanted to maintain control of his empire and had a heavy hand in what books got in the bible, and which ones did not.  Basically, the most popular ones got in.  Hence, the Holy Bible.

With that said, Christianity, using the bible, has been used to justify slaughtering & murdering millions of people.  Christianity was used as a tool to justify conquering non-Christian geographic areas.  (That is a nice way of saying slaughtering millions of people in case you missed it).  This is simply historical fact--no one is arguing this.  

In more recent history, Christianity & the bible were used as justification to burn, drown, or however they chose to murder, "witches."  The term witchcraft was translated from the original Hebrew & Greek by King James who had a deathly fear of, "witches."  The term, "witch," was a popular term during this time.  

Good job Christians--now you have proof in writing to burn witches.

And they did.

I have read estimates of nine (9) million people murdered over several hundred years because they were a, "witch."  To me, it really doesn't matter if it was 100,000 or 9--this is just sick.

Anybody know what most witches actually were?  Let me help.  Many of them were simply nature worshippers, people into herbs, and generally anyone who did not agree with the established church.

If Chrisitianity was taken for what it is--an adoption of many pagan myths & allegories as well as a collection of the most popular books now called the bible that do hold much value, then we would live in a different world.  

But this is not the world we live in.  If you dare mention this in most churches today, you would simply be lost, a non-believer, a heretic and damned for hell.

Yet, anyone can go to their local public library and learn/confirm this information quite easily.  It's not a secret or anything.  

Here's an idea.  Try bringing up this information in a conversation with your co-workers who are Christians.  99% chance you are going to have a real fun time.  Why is that when the information is so simple & easy to learn?

Here's the answer:  While doing my research on the bible, I remember one book's introduction.  The book itself documented how much of the bible was simply taken from common pagan stories.  In the introduction, the author discussed how, upon his own research into the bible & Christianity, he had enormous feelings of guilt.  He felt like he was doing something wrong by researching the history of the bible--simply because what he was learning was not what he was taught in Sunday school class.  He discussed how he had to overcome this sense of doing something wrong.  I went through the exact same thought process during my research.  Why is this?  Why did two, (and many more), adult grownups feel guilt for reading about historical fact?  

So, is Christianity helping or hurting?  I would suggest going to any public library.  You will quickly learn that Christianity has been focused on the following as confirmed by history:          

(1) Control, Fear, &  A Continuous, Repeated Cycle of Ignorance--If You Ask Questions Your Faith is in Question

(2)  A Whole Lot of Blood

(3)  Refer to #1 & #2

 

 

 

[Semirrahge]

Unfortunately, you can't 'prove' your point like this. It's merely our word against yours.

You say, "go look it up for yourselves - it's all there in the library"; to which I reply "as is an equal amount of information supporting my claims."

You have large amounts of information biased against Christianity. I have large amounts biased for. Who wins? It's my opinion that Christianity is real and valid, and yours that it isn't - and in my experience nothing either of us can say will sway our opinions.

And about those 'other' books - surely you don't consider the Gospel of Philip to be of the same mindset as the epistles written by Paul? It contains much that is directly contrary to the ENTIRE work of scripture. No one in his or her right mind would deliberately include contradictory information in a coherent work. It's tantamount to La Vey including a section in the Black Bible that reads something like "A true Satanist recognises the value of self-abasement". Come on!

And you are, furthermore, not "just giving out the facts" - you have a rather aggressive tone. If you're not spoiling for a fight, don't walk around spouting things to people you KNOW will find it offensive.

Maybe you should look at what Christianity is as an IDEAL rather than what men have done in its name. I assure you your beloved Druids and pagans are not as nice and cheery as you make them out to be. Everyone has their black sheep - but I frankly don't see many religions owning up to the existence of such people in their midst and then taking steps to correct it.

Not everyone on this site claims to be a Christian, but the site is operated and run by openly professing Christians for the exact purpose of righting the wrongs men perform under the guise of religion. Surely, with your broad and open mind, you can at least grant us that.

*shrug* I've not spent much time on this site recently due to lack of internet access... And so I haven't been able to keep tabs on where this thread was heading. I'll be around, eventually. Not that you were worried.

[smugsmilz]

I have found myself experiencing both of the poll answers at the same time.

Im guessing its not multiple personalities so Im going with I have walked away from God and hated Christianity and at the same time, I have never doubted in my innerest insides that He was there-giving me a little space.

Never doubting didnt come from a strong, solid faith as much as a whisp of a moment of truth during the darkest times in ATI and a dysfunctional family.

I can say ,though, for me (and I know not everyone will feel this way) that during the times of thumbing my nose at God and Christianity, I felt like He was just waiting for me to come around.

Not angry at me or ready to strike me dead but just kinda like you or I would treat a kid who threw their ice cream cone on the floor. Like "are you done now?"
Cheesy, I know.

There was and is something amazingly kind about the Person I found after ATI, after my hissy fits. Its that kindness that keeps me coming back for more.

[Anonymous]

Smugsmilz, I really appreciate what you said. "That kindness," indeed.

Still very clear to me is that ancient feeling... Of walking through a dark tunnel, surrounded by failure and tormented by despair, and yet somehow amidst all that, I could feel from somewhere within a tiny, almost insignificant coal of hope smouldered. It seemed inextinguishable, even though it was so small as to be barely noticable amidst the chaos of my life.
Somehow I knew that this tiny spark wasn't from me. I barely possessed the strength to keep a pleasant facade up, much less a scrap of impossible, broken hope that I knew to be completely ridiculous.

Somehow, to me, that is what salvation and sanctification are all about - that determined effort to follow a goal with nearly blind, absolute focus and against all reasons to the contrary. Somehow, despite the protestations of my baffled and intellect my mind, I know instinctively that this is true, this is right - even when I lack enough energy to feel like believing.

[Andy]

response to Semirrahge:

The purpose of my post on this forum was to answer the topic of the forum--"Christianity-Helping or Hurting?"  I specifically answered that question with research I have done reading many books on the history of Christianity and the church.  Not weird books from a backwoods bookstore.  I purchased 10 books from Barnes N Nobles--from the normal religion section.  Concurrently, I checked out approximately 50 books from a huge public city library, in one of the largest cities in the U.S.,  from the history of religion/christianity section.  Again, these books were taken from the history section.  This research was conducted over the period of one year.  (I have also listened to dozens of researchers/theologians both in the church and not in the church from many sources).  I did not go to any fringe, new age, alternative, witchcraft or similar section of the library.  

I am not an expert on the history of christianity/church.  And I may have been inaccurate on exact dates, or similar.  However, the information presented is simply history--not my opinion.  The information I presented was not an attack on christianity.  Indeed, the conclusion of my post was my opinion, based upon my research.

In your research, if you have found something that shows this history incorrect, please advise--I am a researcher and quite willing to study.  If my information was incorrect, please correct me.

And you are correct--historically, the church did reject the book of Philip.  

In my research, I found it interesting that the, "other," books not included in the bible were referred to as scripture by the acknowledged theologians during the time when the bible was being written/put together.  

Historical fact is a great place to start.  Please continue.      

[jordanmills]

I'd say that it's helped me deal with it.  Part of what makes Gothard's teachings so appealing is that they ring of truth, and the basic principles (and the twists he puts in them) are easy to recognize and embrace or reject, respectively.  I think the only real problem is the negative light in which one sees the truth, given the association with the agenda.  It's really a personal . . . well not exactly choice, not all the time.  But it's a personal bridge to cross.

[spitfire1979]

I don't have much time to comment on any of this but I want to simply say that it is refreshing to see discussions like this taking place.  I haven't researched anything as thoroughly as Andy seems to have, but in simply studying history as an interested mind, religion and its effect on humnity is definitely a mixed bag.  On the one hand, you have those who reached out to their fellow man in the name of Christ (usually with some strings attached, I have to say,) and those who reached out and were scorned for it because they did so without church backing.

In the beginning of the 20th century, the "social gospel"--which spurred great advances in civil rights for the impoverished, immigrants, women and minorities in America--caused a huge backlash within the Protestant culture which, unfortunately caused the rise of fundamentalism and the religious right, who were so bummed that people dared to do anything good "without Christ" that millions of churchgoers will attend services this Sunday, pay their biblically mandated tithe for missions, yell at their children for rock music, their wives for their "immodest" clothing, go to their deacon's meetings and not feel a darn twinge of empathy to change the plight of their neighboors in distress, and will justify that with, "People without the Lord...thank you Father that I am not such as this."

My own decision to leave the church has a lot to do, rightly or wrongly, with this very attitude and the wall of resistance I find between Christians and their fellow man.  

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but organized religion as a whole can only be evaluated by its adherents' responses to humanity--their own and others'.  An attempt to live "on a higher plane" is just that...an attempt.  What reality is spelled out before their eyes, believe it or not, is what is most often ignored and belittled, excused and consigned to proof that their way is right.

[Andy]

To spitfire 1979:

Indeed, it is absolutely refreshing to see discussions like this take place.  When, in recorded history, has mankind had the freedom to completely & openly discuss such matters?  Never.  (And Independent Guy is doing a fantastic job with all of this).  

And, thank you, but I really have not researched thoroughly--I am just plain ignorant on much of this.  I am a little grasshopper struggling to understand.

To sum up some of your comments,--yeah, the church takes what they want and labels the others as, "wrong," & bound for hell.  That's about it.  Have a nice life.

(If I am not mistaken, there was once a man who the organized church regarded as a heretic, revolutionary, & at the least a troublemaker.  I think his name was Jesus).

I guess the best way to answer this forum question is to get real basic & simple.  

If Christianity is indeed the answer; great.  So how are lost souls around the world to find it?

How does a kid in India find Christianity?  How about a teenager in Liberia?  Or a 27 year old in Taiwan?  China?  How about a grandmother in Iran?  Etc., etc., etc.

In most of these & similar countries, the dominant, i.e. accepted religion is not Christianity.  Many of these people accept the religion of their parents, get married, have kids and repeat the process.  That’s it.  

So what did they do, “wrong?”  

Are they not doing the exact same thing we are doing in this country—accepting the faith they are raised on and repeating the cycle over & over & over?

How is someone raised in the Muslim faith supposed to find Christianity when they are absolutely surrounded and engrossed with non-Christian doctrine?

Here in America, we are told that the Holy Spirit will lead one to Christ.  So, it’s not emotions or guilt that leads us to Christ, correct?  Ok, I respect that.  If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Almighty, then it needs no overt emotion, no, “booster,” no worldly nor emotional help.  I believe that is obvious.

So why do many Christian churches play nothing but sad, minor chords to evoke emotion at the end of the service???  The organist/pianist gets on their instrument and starts playing the saddest, melancholy music around.   All the while the pastor is usually speaking in dramatic, albeit calmly at times, speeches that wrench at our basal emotions.  Why is this drama brought into the church?  

Does the Holy Spirit need or require this?  I think the answer is obvious.  So why do many Christian churches intentionally provoke such emotion?  Why does the pastor revert to dramatic speeches especially at the end of the service when people are supposed to be led by the Spirit to come to God?

Is not the Word of God with the Holy Spirit not enough???  

By the age of 19, I had been taking classical guitar lessons for a couple of years at the local college, and was also playing in a Christian music group—I understood the basics of music.  I also fully understood the impact music had on people.  During this time, I was being seriously prompted/encouraged by my youth minister to go into the ministry full time in a huge Baptist church.  He was doing the same with two other good young men I knew.  Out of the three of us, only one went into the ministry full time—it was not me.  I will call him, “Joe.”  Before any of the three of us were, “acknowledged,” as potential ministers, I was of course on genuinely friendly terms with Joe.  Joe was and is a good soul.

We were both about 19 when I once asked Joe why they played music at the end of the service . . . always in a dramatic minor, (sad), key.   As a young man, it honestly perplexed me.  It bothered me.  

At the age of 19, I understood the power of the Holy Spirit according to the bible.  

“Joe,” could not answer why the church chose such emotionally provoking music at the end of the church service when lost souls were supposed to come to Christ.  I do not think Joe had ever thought about this.  It seems Joe had accepted the faith of his parents without questioning really much of anything.  Joe has kids now, and they are getting older, soon to have kids of their own.

Joe is a good man.  Joe has a college degree.  But Joe has apparently never researched nor really questioned the history of his own faith.  He simply accepted it.  His children are doing the same.  

Joe has much invested in his faith.  His wife & almost grown children depend on his career.  Joe’s kids will be in college soon.  

Joe is not going to the library to research the history of the church.  Joe will read the booklets and other reading material from within his faith that is provided for him.  Joe is constantly busy with the many & never ending problems faced by those within his group.  

I can go on & on & on.  “Joe,” is a good person.  A good man.  A good soul.  

There are many, “Joe’s,” who will come across this board.  Most will never say a word.  I know they won’t because I was almost one of these Joe’s.  Can you really blame them?  Their whole being is tied into the church.  What are they supposed to do?  

Yeah, here’s a scenario from any, “Joe,” in the USA . . .

“Hi Andy, what’s up man?  Been reading posts on here and decided to do some research on the whole church thing.  (Thanks for telling me about the, “Independent Spirits,” site).  Anyway, I am starting to go to library and do some basic info gathering.  Gosh, I didn’t realize all this was in our history.    The wife is really encouraging me to learn more.  She says it’s a real eye opener that we need to educate the kids with.   After all, it is our own history, right?  Can’t wait to share this with the pastor.  I think he will really appreciate the information.  Take Care!”

Yeah, right.

These people are stuck like chuck.  They are just too deep into it.  I’d like to offer an easy way out, but I have no simple solutions.  However, these, “Joe’s,” do have other ways out.  Indeed, there are other good jobs out there for them.  Without a doubt, it is hard to change.  To be frank, I, personally, cannot blame them.

It is a mess.

Yet, all could have been avoided.  

Regardless of what country, province, district, culture, religion, faith, etc., one is raised in, one should ask questions.  One, anyone, should do the most basic research.  Questions of faith should be embraced by those in question.  After all, those in question should expect and hope for such an inquiry.

So, back to the question of this forum:  Christianity-Helping or Hurting?

Historical Answer:  

Helping . . . No.  
Hurting . . . Yes  
Nightmare . . . Yes.

                 

[encourager]

I think everyone in life has to deal with the question of whether or not the God of the Bible is the real faith, or the question of whether or not Jesus is who he says he is. I believe one has to find out for himself. This is how a stronger faith is developed. There is so much evidence that the God of the Bible is the real one. If you can just go on the basis of the testimonies who have been radically changed, you can see that no other religion on the face of the earth can do what the gospel of Jesus Christ can do.

As for the question whether or not Christianity is helping or hurting. I believe that for the most part the real gospel is changing lives. The real gospel is helping. It is the condition of the church in western culture that is hurting people. It is misrepresenting Christianity. I am going to a pentecostal church, and like Semirrahge has found, it seems to be more liberating. They seem to have more of the life of the Spirit. I know there are extremes even in those churches, but at least you don't get the harsh task master of legalism.

I am not going to completely throw out church, because the Scriptures tell us not to forsake the gathering together of believers. I realize there are flaws in every Christian assembly. THE THING THAT WE HAVE IN COMMON IS THE GLORIOUS MESSAGE OF THE CROSS AND THE EMPTY TOMB. THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT IS CHANGING PEOPLE"S LIVES. All the other issues are secondary. I realize there may be debates on how the Holy Spirit works and the gifts of the Spirit, but really boils down to receiving the grace that has already been given us. It is not wrong to receive gifts from heaven. He wants us to receive. We don't have to prove ourselves worthy. His blood already makes us worthy.

Yes, I have run into some puzzlements with God and the church. I still can't say I have all the answers. I have found Jesus to be my best friend. He has never left me. I can trust Him, even when I don't understand.

I found that it is better for me to pray for the condition of the church, rather than to complain about it. I cannot see myself going back to a more conservative church however. I have nothing against Baptists, Methodist, Lutherans, or Presbyterians. I believe there are genuine Chirstians in every church. If I did go back to a more conservative church they would probably kick me out anyway. Not just because I speak in tongues, but because I just don't fit their package of what they think Christianity should be like.

The problem I am facing with my church that I am currently attending is that there is no one who shares the same interests as me as far as the classical music goes. I can't talk about Mozart and Beethoven at my church or invite friends to the symphony. They are so far removed from this world. I showed my box set of Haydn String Quartets to one of my friends at church and he said, "Where's the gospel in that?" I replied, "There is a work called 'The Seven Last Words of Christ'. It is not in this boxed set. I have to buy that seperately."

One of the things I have noticed in church settings is the confusion about what constitutes spirituality. Some feel that going to a baseball game is not being very spiritual or going to entertainment. I believe you can bring Jesus where ever you go. I guess if you go to the bar to drink, that might be one place that is hard to bring Jesus with you. If it were to be a witness in a bar, that might be a different situation. I would have to make sure that it was something the Lord was telling me to do. I can't see myself going into those types of establishments.

But I guess the thing I am saying is that the church seems to make an issue out of things that are just personal preferences and has nothing to do with our standing with God. Just because I like classical music doesn't mean I am less spiritual than the one who listens to only worship music. I like worship music too, but I hear so much of that at my church that I prefer in my own leisure to listen to Bach, Handel, Mozart, Vivaldi and music with violins, violas and cellos. I feel so far removed from the rest of society because I listen to this stuff. Sometimes it bothers me and other times I just don't care.

As far as Gothard is concerned, yes, I do believe he is driving people away from Christianity. I believe some this cannot be helped. Because of his legalistic approach to the Bible, he is naturally going drive people away from the Christian faith.

[Anonymous]

"The problem I am facing with my church that I am currently attending is that there is no one who shares the same interests as me as far as the classical music goes."

Ahh, and this proves my point:  somehow you have come to believe that the church and its attendees must be the central part of your life, your socialization and your place in the world.  What's right about that?  You seem to be accepting the role of "conscience maker" it was given through your legalistic past.  

Get online and find people in your community who like classical music! I'm telling you, you really need to think about the boundries here.  There are more messages from God to be had besides just getting people to "pray the prayer".  Christians have alienated themselves from society in the last century because they have come to believe that they must in order to be effective.  I'm not talking about going to bars to witness here.  That's dumb.  We're talking about having friends who enjoy your taste in music simply because that is what brings people together.

Try it.