So, how many of you people are even still Chrisians?

[Eliyahu Jones]

I actually got turned onto this site by a news piece on Matt Murray, the New Life Killer (irony?).  But what I found particularly, er, striking were the similarities that I found in our spiritual inquiries post-christianity...if that story on WND is to be believed.  But you know, I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong with wanting to study the occult or qabbalah or whatever, I am obviously sorry that people were killed and this guy never got him mind straightened out, but I don't blame any of that.  Anyway, Babylon is doomed to suffer the judgment, like the psalmist said, and I can't think of anything more babylon than the american protestant christian church.

[encourager]

I am still a believer in Jesus Christ. It has been an easier road for me because my parents were not indoctrinated in Bill Gothard's teachings.  I was exposed to it when I was younger, but my parents did not really adopt the whole thing.  My father had a check in his spirit about going to the advanced seminar.  He only went to the basic seminar.

Most of my exposure to the teachings came when I went to Bible college. I noticed a legalistic flavor to the whole campus. The school regulated everything from dress, music, relationships, hair style and how you address those in authority, or those that claimed to be in authority.  I had a hard time at the school, but because I was exposed to this after I was an adult I was able to differentiate between the real gospel of Jesus Christ and the legalistic version that Gothard was promoting.  There is a world of difference between the two.

I understand that it is harder for those who grow up with Gothard's teachings as a child to tell the difference between the real gospel and the false one. The real big problem is the misinterpretaion of scripture and it hard to shake this stuff off without totally rejecting Christianity altogether, and you are condemned for leaving you parents and treated like an infidel. Because Gothard's teachings are under the banner of the Chirsitian church and evangelical, catholic, and protestant churches tolerate it, it gets misconstrued as being reflective of the standards that God requires to live a holy lifestyle.  When one thinks of purity they think of monks and nuns, they think of gals with long skirts and guys wearing a suite and tie.  There is a certian image that comes to mind when one thinks of purity and holiness, and it is hard to get rid of these images.  Gothard's system appeals to many in the church because it offers a package that seems to have all the answers for everything.

I am still actively attending church, but I have to admit there are times I still I revert back to the old system of legalism.  I know that I am saved by grace, but I also am made holy by his grace.  It is not by my own merit or effort that I achieve the work of God, but it is by trusting in his power and strength.

[granolagoddess]

I am not,, a christian, strictly saying, anymore. I have spiritual beliefs that are undefined and nebulous. I simply do not know anything to be true other than love, and even that is complicated.

[Eliyahu Jones]

> I have spiritual beliefs that are undefined and nebulous.

This is a wisdom of its own.  Lao Tzu said: The Name that can be named is not the true name.

>I simply do not know anything to be true other than love, and even that is complicated.

Maybe not as complicated as it seems. All we need is two or three together to "feel alright" (with appologies to Bob Marley)  But I think that's definately where this whole thing is headed; whether you want to call it "love" or whatever, a basic perception of unity is what seems to be necessary to overcome the illusion of separation.

[Tim]

I am also still a Christian (and an enthusiastic one at that). To equate the teachings of Bill Gothard as part of the gospel or Christianity is missing the Biblical message altogether. Real Christians test the teachings of men by the Scriptures, not vise versa.

Blaming men or the teachings of men for our problems (even if they are based on the Bible) is flat wrong. The only person that is praiseworthy is one that takes responsibility for his/her own actions and responds in love in spite of being mistreated in a flawed world. Only Christ can change a heart and keep one from straying into one extreme or another. No formula exists to raise  a perfect Christian family outside of the Bible; this is where most ATI families went wrong. Those that became ATI fanatics got the false idea that ATI and IBLP were the fulfillment of the kingdom of God and the vehicles for God's work in the 21st century.

No wonder there are a million hurts. However, as most of us know, ATI is almost dead and IBLP has been on the downturn for a long time. Even if that were not so, what is the use of nursing bitternesses? God is the judge. Furthermore, love and truth would put those things behind us. Instead I see a lot of people who can't live lives of true freedom and love because they can't get over the past. Forgiveness would free a lot of people. -Tim

[Eliyahu Jones]

So, was this for me or in general?
Because I agree that plenty of folks would benefit from forgiveness; xristian, jewish, muslim, atheist, it's just part of living a happy life.  On this tip, the Buddhists are way out in front of xristians or whoever because they are taught that their experiences are impermanent and illusory; this makes it pretty easy not to hold onto bitterness.

I guess my real problem with what you say kicks in here:

Real Christians test the teachings of men by the Scriptures, not vise versa.

er, with all due respect, sir, you do not own the rights to the xristian brand and cannot really make the determination about who is a "real" one and who is not. Furthermore, what can we know about this "scripture" that is not taught?

I guess what I am really saying is "What's special about your religion?"
I have conducted a somewhat extensive religious survey in my post-xristianity spiritual journey and I have found that most others work a lot better.  Here's a quote from scripture: Ye shall know them by their fuits.  So what fruit has xristianity borne?  I think that if you are honest you will see that the church is one of the most destructive and heinous institutions in history.  American xritians are all too eager to murder countless foreigners in service to a satanic regime, and too spiritually dim to reallize when one of their spiritual "leaders" is a twack-addicted sodomite.  your religion is a faiure of all it is supposed to be.  Forgive?  Yes, but that does not entail giving a free pass to the ones orchestrating the charade.
 

I am also still a Christian (and an enthusiastic one at that). To equate the teachings of Bill Gothard as part of the gospel or Christianity is missing the Biblical message altogether.
Blaming men or the teachings of men for our problems (even if they are based on the Bible) is flat wrong. The only person that is praiseworthy is one that takes responsibility for his/her own actions and responds in love in spite of being mistreated in a flawed world.  No formula exists to raise  a perfect Christian family outside of the Bible; this is where most ATI families went wrong. Those that became ATI fanatics got the false idea that ATI and IBLP were the fulfillment of the kingdom of God and the vehicles for God's work in the 21st century.

No wonder there are a million hurts. However, as most of us know, ATI is almost dead and IBLP has been on the downturn for a long time. Even if that were not so, what is the use of nursing bitternesses? God is the judge. Furthermore, love and truth would put those things behind us. Instead I see a lot of people who can't live lives of true freedom and love because they can't get over the past. Forgiveness would free a lot of people. -Tim

[That Chick]

I am not at all a Christian.  I hate when they start judging and trying to convert people – especially me.  I think if you want to “convert” someone to Christianity, then lead by example and let them make their own choice.  Good Christians believe not only in God and Jesus’ power, but in the power of love.  I believe in God and in love, just…not in the Bible or Jesus.

I have a hard time getting along with most Christians (not all, most).  Not like I can’t accept them at all, but once they start talking holy-talk it just kills me.  Hypocrites make me sick.  Liars make me sick.  (ATI makes me especially sick.)  And Christians are all too often hypocrites and liars.  The church is full of sin, perhaps even more than the secular world.  I find Marilyn Manson more wholesome than today’s church.  But that’s just me.

[Eliyahu Jones]

>I find Marilyn Manson more wholesome than today’s church. But that’s just me.

It's not just you, Ma; MM is one of the most talented and insightful artist in popular music.  Unfortuantely, I fear that the babylonchurch has worked its perfect corruption in him as it did with Matt Murray, Crowley and many others.  I understand his hatred for the Damned Religion, but the bitterness (I think) keeps him in bondage to his true enemy.  It also give the xristians (his fake enemy) something to crow about.  Makes me think that the church won.

[Independent Girl]

'nother Christian checking in here. I don't like what I went through in regards to ATI/IBLP but it sure did strengthen my true faith in Christ because I had to reject Gothard's teachings so completely before I could actually know Christ.

[Eliyahu Jones]

That sounds good and all that, but what does that really mean?  I understand your contention that that Gothardism doesn't represent the real religion of Jesus, but he was Jewish, wasn't he?  I think it should be pretty obvious that the christian religion doesn't really represent the teaching or spiritual practice of the historical fellow, if he is in fact historical.

[granolagoddess]

I am right with you EJ...I like a lot of what Jesus said, well, most really, as it is represented in the bible, but he was a jew. He never said..."I come to make my church outside judaism" unless and except that you believe what Paul said. He did not even know Jesus...so who knows. The "Real Christians" thing also gets to me, b/c it is a social construction just like "wife" and "girl" and "husband" are. If we don't, as a group, give it meaning, then it does not exist! God may still exist, but "christian" probably doesn't, any more than baptist, zen, catholic or mennonite. I mean the Amish would not be except for the fact that they collectively agreed to create themselves. Maybe there was a reason the OT says to Moses " I am that I am." and that Jews do not use the real name of god. Perhspas we need to delve into judaism and perhaps kabala to really understand the origins of our beliefs. I know that learning, objective, reasoned argument and critical thinking are all part of their culture. I don't hold the jews out to have "the truth" either, i just think we have diverged, as a "christian" society from the original meaning of the faith to begin with. So much is read into prophecy from the OT and applied to the NT in ways we have never questioned. Makes no sense to me, now.

[RobK]

My experience with all things Gothard nearly ruined my life.  There may be good things found in ATI/IBLP, but that is another topic entirely.  I am a Christian now.  All my years in the System I thought I was, but it was only years later, after I had abandoned all appearances of godliness, that out of the blue, I had a total life change.
I vaguely remember post-Basic but pre-Ati life.  I was young then.  But I remember that my parents were fun, loved each other, had lots of friends, and were an active part of a less-than-perfect church.  They were motivated to start homeschooling when they were given the ultimatum to take their seven year old in for psych evaluation to deal with my intense emotional problems or I would be transfered to a special needs school [read drugs, abuse, and poor education].  My life was good for the first bit -- shorter school days, alone time reading, no bullies or shouting teachers.  I still played with my school and church friends, and life was otherwise normal.  Then ATI.  My parents had a few Gothardisms already, but then it really took off.  At first it was okay, my dad taught us in the evenings, but he couldn't keep up with working long hours and then teaching us all evening yet.  As my mom took over, things went bad.  The System somehow legitimized her personal imperfections: say hello to total domination, outburst of rage, violence and abuse.  Oh ya, and its because she loves us and wants whats best for us.  Ditto for God.  My dad tried to reign her in, then their relationship tanked, and he became passively cynical like the father in Pride and Prejudice.  At least he realized that ATI had limited academic value and concurrently enrolled us in another homeschool program that did.  Soon us kids practically ended up teaching ourselves as mom could do little more than enforce basic principles, particularly authority.  Lots of weird things happened at our house, objects mysteriously damaged, strange sounds, unexplainable injuries, strange urges and relationships.  All good reasons for a beating.  When I snapped one day for being pushed past my limit athletically (I had athsma), and got the beating of my life, I realized that my punishments had little to do with living godly.  In my 15 year old mind, that meant that there was no authority behind her, and I could stand up to her, and did.  Played along on the outside, took the abuse, but refused to be broken inside.  As an aside, in the mean time, my parents along with the rest of the Gothard cadre got expelled from the church that their lives revolved around.  We lost our rapidly waning social life instantly.  Anyway, went to men's counseling at ITC at 16, and was blown away when Bill said to the assembly that he was misleading those at the Basic and Advanced by withholding the true secret of victory over temptation until they progressed to the stage we were at.  All I remember after that was feeling ill and disillusioned.  I started living a double life.  I started documenting the abuse and other illegal activities to blackmail with in case I got caught.  I started working and meeting people.  Then my sister ran away and the courts got involved.  She was convicted and put on probation. The case was crazy enough that nationally syndicated columns were written about her.  I should have said more, but I wasn't even asked to testify.  To this day I don't know why no one stepped in and intervened. No one. Not from church, not from the law, not from social agencies, not even the Institute, who should have gotten more bad press for standing behind her to the end.  Then I went to Mexico with my dad to visit extended family and discovered he was totally different when outside the System.  Much more fun.  Good times.  I also discovered after that there was alot that went on at home that he knew nothing about (going directly to him would be circumventing God's pattern of authority), ditto for the defence lawyer who changed his mind after.  Too late.  
Anyway, I met a beautiful girl who shared my cultural background (but zero Gothard exposure) and my desire to let loose and live.  We dated, got married, and lived it up.  It was a troubled relationship because my only frame of reference with relationships was IBLP.  It seems you can rebel but alot of the stuff is so deeply ingrained it takes time to search and destroy it.  Eventually we went to church again, and were disillusioned by a complex leadership sex scandal.  We cut loose again until we were invited to a church by friend where I heard the gospel, unplugged.  No total victory, taking back ground, formulas for success.  I was changed.  Suddenly I had a voracious appetite for reading.  I studied ancient heresies and found many of them worked into the System.  I also got my definitions redefined and it totally changed how I understood the bible, and consequently, God.  I was so excited about my new life, I shared my new ideas with my family whom we had started talking to again.  They were incensed.  They started coming to our church but would not be civil.  That was three years ago.  We since moved cross country partly to put space between us and them and the life I grew up in.  We still rarely talk.  Christian life has been up and down, but more real.  It is still a steep curve to get reeducated, to get the lies out of my thinking.  When I get frustrated, I want to throw it all away, but I have to remind myself that though I hate the counterfeit, I still want the truth.

[spitfire1979]

After leaving the fundamentalist church I attended with my parents (heavily Gothardized) I went to a couple of non-denom churches that really did help me work through my anger at God and all things church.  Without the friendship and good people I met at those places-- people who truly did mean to just love Christ and do good for others, and actually accomplished that, I would probably be what most religious people think that those who leave the church are--just bitter and tired of something getting shoved down my throat.  

Eventually, I left religion altogether after trying hard to put some logical thought into the functionality of salvation, original sin, etc and seeing that it just didn't hold up.  I've always been one who tries to get to the bottom of things to discover an original purpose, and I left the Christian faith with absolute assurance that what I had seen and known of it in my life was convuluted, at best, and frightening at its more honest assessment.  Nevertheless, the basic tenets of the faith-- any faith-- are its bottom line, and I stopped calling myself a Christian about 2 years ago.