Podcast 4: Interview with Don Veinot - Part 4

[Independent Guy]

Link to the show and show notes

What did you think?

[granolagoddess]

I-guy...I thought this one was very good. The only issues I had with Don's comments were the "in" group concept that was expressed in relationship to counselors. It was interesting that he felt he would not reccomend counseling to anyone unless he vetted them first. That seems a little controlling and a little narrow. Some of my best therapists, when dealing with these gothard issues, were not christians, but were respectful and operated within MY belief system, never trying to convince me of what to believe, but helping to guide me to a healthy place, psychologically, and emotionally. I get concerned that some christians believe they need to only patronize only "christian" music, television, stores, businesses, etc. It all seems to comodified, and like the money-changers in the bible.

Do not get me wrong, I appreciate the work Don and the others are doing. He is a good guy, and has always treated me right. But, as most lawyers, I will argue a point when I feel it is not all I think it should be. I like the podcasts, and feel they are professionally done. I would like to see more of them.

[Independent Guy]

I think if you look at Don's vantage point, I think his concern about counselors is merited. What he sees everyday is people who are spiritually/emotionally/physically abused by false teaching. I know that there are some counselors out there who would actually perpetuate this abuse. iGirl was sent to one of those by her parents. I think Don was saying that it can be difficult to have a bullet-proof set of criteria that will get you a good counselor. Don probably sees the worst of what counselors are out there and is hesitant to recommend one he has not really sure about.

I also think in the conversation was not only dealing with healing emotionally, but spiritually. And by that I mean getting a correcting the incorrect teachings of Gothard. So Don may have been talking about Christian Counselors because of that.

[granolagoddess]

I saw that as well I-guy....just want to point out my concerns, and provide a little different view. I don't doubt that there are some "christian" counselors that can screw someone up. Believe me, I know. I went to one, and he was very inappropriate with me, making sexual comments and and probably would have really abused me if I had not gotten out of the situation. He was evil.

[encourager]

I think, in general counselors have not helped very much. You have heard the saying, "You can only lead someone as far as you've come yourself". I think it is very hard to find good counselors. Yeah, some may say they are from a Biblical perspective, but they end up siding more with Psychology. There are some things in Psychology that seem to be ok, but there other things that conflict with the Bible, especially with the doctrine of original sin. They don't believe in demons or demon possession. Those that practice medicine along with psychology just distribute ani-depressants to solve problems like hearing voices, which may be voices from the spirit realm.

As far as help for those who have come out of Gothard, there doesn't seem to be much help. It is sad to say. I don't think a Biblical counselor is going to help too much because many who come out of IBLP and ATI either have rejected the Bible or are very confused about what it all means. They don't want counsel from the Bible. They get what the Bible says plus what Bill Gothard says and it is all mixed up and confused. So that is why it is hard for those that come out of this stuff to get help. This is just my observation of things.

[granolagoddess]

There are some things in Psychology that seem to be ok, but there other things that conflict with the Bible, especially with the doctrine of original sin. They don't believe in demons or demon possession. Those that practice medicine along with psychology just distribute ani-depressants to solve problems like hearing voices, which may be voices from the spirit realm.

Encourager, I really do not agree with you about the psychiatrist thing. psychiatrists are necessary for the well-being of many sick people.  Anti-depressants are given to people who are depressed, and not doled out like candy. No mental health caregiver would denigrate someone's religion out of hand. There is science behind these things, not some witchy voodoo. Most, if not all, of phenonmena that involve hearing voices are NOT demon possession. I am a christian, and I do NOT believe in original sin, either!

[Independent Guy]

That raises a question. Why did Christ die on the cross, if you don't believe in original sin?

[granolagoddess]

I believe we are not born sinners. I do believe we do fall below perfection, by virtue of of our right to free will. We do not always make the right decisions, and we we struggle to become full humans through trial and error. One of the things we struggle with here, is that gothard is trying to circumvent these processes by modeling and demanding "perfect behavior." I think we come to know god through our failure. Perfection is never attainable, but grace is ever present. I simply do not believe we are born broken. God wanted us to have relaitonship with god through choice, and choice and freewill cause us to, sometimes, be broken.

[ninth doctor]

I agree with Granolagoddess about psychiatry.Many people inside and outside of Gothard's camp are woefully misinformed when it comes to treating depression.Some "Christian" therapists are the worst,blaming the patient for the illness and telling them it is a spiritual issue.If you are feeling down it's probably because you are Self-Centered and not Christ -Centered,sound familiar?It is all your fault so read Psalms and get over it.

[encourager]

I did not mean to make it sound like I am against all Psychologist. I do believe in original sin. That is why we need the cross. I am sorry for the confusion. If we were all basically good when we were born, than  maybe you could grow up in a basically good environment and turn out sinless, but the sad reality is that that doesn't happen.
What I was saying was that there are many psychologist that do not believe in original sin. Most Biblical counselors believe in original sin.
As far as psychiastrists dispensing drugs like candy, I do not believe they do that kind of thing. I believe they try to do their best to diagnose things, but all I know is that I was on paxel for almost a year and it made me worse. So I know there are side effects to these drugs and they are not to be taken lightly. Maybe I was a bit harsh with my last post, but I have been through a lot of bad counselors.

I wish there would be more good counselors out there. I am praying for counselors  to come to help with all of this. We are not meant to walk alone. I can't see this kind thing being fought alone. I think it is great that Don Veinot  and all those at Midwest Christian Outreach have done a fine job at exposing the lies in Gothard's ministry, but it doesn't end their. There needs to be more help.

[Been There]

I am in therapy right now, and I have to say, it is the best thing that has ever happened to me.  For Don to say that all counselors need to go through his approval process raises a huge red flag and sounds very loud bells.  No, I don't need him to approve my therapist, thank you very much.  I am a cognitive, fully-functional human being with a brain, and I don't need him, or Gothard, to guide my every step and choice.  That really pisses me off.

[encourager]

I probably need therapy too. I just don't know where to go. I have run into so many bad ones that I don't know where to turn. The other thing is if they are a professional practice they usually want a lot of money and if my insurance will only cover certain ones I have to pay out of pocket.

[Independent Girl]

Rachel,

Don didn't say that all counselors need to go through his approval process.  During the interview we had to edit quite a bit and through our discussion with him it was very clear that he didn't want to just give out names on the podcast for several reasons.  First, he didn't have permission from the counselors to say their names on the podcast, second he doesn't know logistically where all our readers/listeners are located, so he wouldn't be able to give out a geographically extensive list of counselors, and third (and most importantly), it would NEVER be wise for him or anyone to recommed a specific counselor to someone unless he had a chance to speak with the person desiring counseling to know in which direction they wanted to go.  Many counselors have specific fields and don't handle certain types of therapy.  If Don had recommended counselors, there could potentially be legal repercussions if the person recommended didn't work out with the patient.

There are many reasons he couldn't give out names on the podcast and I completely respect his wisdom there. It's just professional courtesy.

[Been There]

OK, that clears some issues up for me.  Thank you!

[Sarah]

The podcasts were excellent and I have referred 7 people to them so far.  My husband did not grow up with any Gothard influence that he is aware of, but felt like Veinot was describing his childhood church anyway.

I personally would like to see these podcasts continue.  In particular, I would be interested in hearing a few key stories of the journey Gothard followers have made out of the sect and how they have worked to restore their framework of truth.  

It would be particularly interesting if there were a parent/adult child interview -- in which both have come to see the error of Gothard and can discuss its affect on their family from both perspectives.